From the Pulpit to the Counseling Room: How Pastors Can Shepherd Hurting People Well
A conversation with Pastor Josh Rayborn on trust, listening, counseling, suffering, and lasting change
Welcome to Form: A Counseling Podcast. I’m your host, Devin Leitch, and today we’re joined again by one of our favorites, Pastor Josh Raver, pastor of Faith Baptist Church in Frankfort, Kentucky.
Josh and I have had many conversations over the years about pastoral ministry, counseling, discipleship, and what it means to genuinely care for people. One of the reasons I wanted to have him back on the podcast is because he has a unique ability to connect with people. He has a way of making people feel comfortable, heard, and valued.
While Josh has not had extensive formal counseling training, he has developed a deep pastoral instinct through years of ministry, relationships, and watching others shepherd people well. Much of that came from growing up as a pastor’s kid and observing his father’s ability to care for people.
“Watching my dad navigate people’s problems, watching people naturally be drawn to my father and how he handled himself and cared for people, I picked up on that.”
Josh also recognized God’s providence in shaping his life through experiences outside the church. Working in different environments and interacting with people from all walks of life gave him insight into how people think, struggle, and communicate.
Ultimately, though, ministry effectiveness comes from something deeper than skill.
“I don’t think there’s any good substitute for the gifting of God.”
Good counseling and good shepherding require both wisdom and genuine care.
Building Trust: People Know When You Care
One of the first questions we discussed was:
How do you build trust with people quickly without being superficial?
Josh’s answer was simple but profound:
“People can definitely tell genuinely if people care about them.”
Trust cannot be manufactured. People can usually sense when someone is simply performing concern versus when someone truly loves them.
The foundation of counseling and shepherding is not technique. It is love.
If you want people to open up, you have to actually care about them.
That means:
Asking questions because you genuinely want to know the answers.
Listening instead of preparing your next response.
Being interested in their story, not just their problem.
Josh emphasized that listening is one of the most important skills anyone can develop.
“You learn more about people by listening than you do talking.”
This is especially important in a culture where many people are losing the ability to have meaningful conversations. Genuine listening communicates something powerful:
“You matter enough for me to hear you.”
The Difference Between Preaching and Counseling
One of the most important distinctions we discussed was the difference between preaching and counseling.
Pastors are called to preach the Word. They proclaim truth clearly and faithfully.
Counseling, however, requires a different posture.
Counseling is not simply telling someone what is wrong and giving them the answer.
It is helping them discover what is happening in their heart and helping them move toward truth.
As Proverbs says:
“The purpose in a man’s heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out.”
— Proverbs 20:5
A pastor may stand behind the pulpit and proclaim:
“This is what God says.”
But in the counseling room, the goal is often:
“Help me understand what is happening in your heart and how Scripture speaks into it.”
That does not mean truth is absent from counseling. Far from it.
The Word of God remains central.
But people often need to discover how truth applies to their own lives.
Josh explained:
“There is something about when the Lord imparts that knowledge and it’s like a wow moment for you and it sticks.”
Lasting change often happens when people don’t simply hear truth, but when they begin to see themselves through the truth.
Why People Shut Down in Counseling
A major question we explored was:
What causes people to shut down when they are seeking help?
The answer:
They do not feel understood.
Many people enter counseling already feeling shame, fear, or embarrassment. If the first thing they experience is correction instead of compassion, they often retreat.
People need to know:
“You understand what I’m saying.”
“You are not shocked by my struggle.”
“You are willing to walk with me.”
This does not mean agreeing with every conclusion someone has reached.
A counselor or pastor can validate someone’s experience without validating an unhealthy interpretation.
There is a difference between:
“I understand why you feel this way.”
and:
“You are right about everything you believe.”
Good shepherding requires both compassion and truth.
The Power of Asking Questions
One of the skills Josh highlighted was asking good questions.
Instead of immediately telling someone what they need to know, good counselors often ask questions that help people examine themselves.
Questions like:
“Tell me more about that.”
“Why do you think that affected you so deeply?”
“When did you first start believing that?”
“What do you think God is showing you through this?”
Often people already know more than they realize.
They simply need someone patient enough to help draw it out.
A Biblical View of Suffering
One of the themes we returned to repeatedly was suffering.
We discussed 1 Peter and how Peter wrote to Christians experiencing intense persecution.
The interesting thing is that Peter does not begin by telling them:
“Everything will get better.”
Instead, he begins by reminding them who they are.
“To those who are elect exiles…”
Before Peter addresses their suffering, he reminds them of their identity.
Their circumstances were painful, but their circumstances did not define them.
The same is true today.
One of the greatest needs people have in suffering is not simply relief.
It is perspective.
A biblical counselor helps people ask:
What does this reveal about God?
What does this reveal about myself?
How does Christ meet me here?
A right view of God changes how we interpret our suffering.
The Weight Pastors Carry
One of the most honest parts of our conversation was discussing the emotional weight pastors experience.
Pastors love people. They carry burdens with people.
That is a beautiful part of ministry.
But it can also become overwhelming.
Josh shared how difficult it can be to carry the weight of many people’s struggles.
“I bear people’s burdens a lot and I have a hard time leaving that there.”
Many pastors struggle because they genuinely care.
The challenge is learning the difference between:
Bearing someone’s burden
and
carrying someone’s burden as if you are their savior.
Only Christ can carry that weight.
Pastors must care deeply while also recognizing their limits.
A healthy pastor asks:
“How much can I faithfully give?”
An unhealthy pastor asks:
“How much can I get away with not giving?”
The goal is not emotional distance.
The goal is faithful endurance.
Good Counseling Works Toward Independence
One of the most important principles we discussed was this:
A good counselor works themselves out of a job.
The goal of counseling is not to create dependence.
The goal is to help people mature.
Good counseling helps people:
Understand themselves.
Understand God.
Understand Scripture.
Develop healthy patterns.
Live faithfully within Christian community.
The counselor should not become someone’s replacement for God or the church.
Instead, counseling should help people reconnect with God and with His people.
The Church’s Role in Healing
One of the biggest discussions centered around the role of the church.
Why are so many people turning to secular counseling instead of seeking help within Christian community?
Part of the answer is that many people experience therapy as a place where they can:
Be heard.
Be accepted.
Be honest.
Be known.
Receive help without shame.
The church should be the place where those things happen.
Scripture calls believers to:
“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.”
— Galatians 6:2
The church should be a community where people can be honest about their struggles while being pointed toward Christ.
Christian community should not be a place where people hide their weaknesses.
It should be a place where people find grace and growth.
From Knowledge to Transformation
One of the final questions we discussed was:
How do we help people move from knowing truth to actually believing truth?
Josh shared a practical approach:
Sometimes people can give biblical advice to someone else but struggle to believe it for themselves.
A helpful question is:
“Do you really believe that?”
Often people discover they believe God’s promises for others but struggle to apply them personally.
The goal is not merely information.
Transformation requires the truth moving from the head to the heart.
Sin, Suffering, and Sanctification
We ended by discussing how pastors and counselors help people understand the relationship between sin, suffering, and sanctification.
Not all suffering comes from personal sin.
Jesus Himself rejected that idea when His disciples asked whether a man’s blindness was caused by his sin or his parents’ sin.
But sometimes suffering does come from sinful choices.
The key question is:
How do we respond to where we are?
Whether someone is suffering because of:
Their own sin,
Someone else’s sin,
Living in a broken world,
Or God’s sanctifying work,
the answer remains the same:
Run to Christ.
Conviction draws us toward Jesus.
Condemnation drives us away from Him.
Final Thoughts
This conversation with Pastor Josh was a reminder that good counseling is not simply about having the right answers.
It is about loving people well.
It is about listening.
It is about understanding.
It is about helping people see themselves, their struggles, and their Savior more clearly.
The goal of counseling is not merely to fix problems.
The goal is transformation.
And ultimately, lasting change comes when people are brought back again and again to the person and work of Jesus Christ.
If you found this conversation helpful, subscribe to Form: A Counseling Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube. Share it with someone who could benefit from learning more about biblical counseling, pastoral care, and healthy relationships.
For counseling resources or to connect with Form Counseling Ministry, visit formcounselingministry.org.
